nothing. there are fines involved, and we think that it's unconstitutional, and many states do. there are at least 16 states already that filed suit against the federal government. >> senator, again, you are right, it's up to 18 states challenging the federal law and the attorneys general are going in and saying we don't think it's unconstitutional. i think almost all the constitutional scholars that looked at it said the commerce clause that you refer to does in fact give the federal government the capacity to say if you don't do something, we will impose a health tax on you, and that's within the powers the supreme court has given to the government. how do you hope to circumvent that interpretation of the commerce clause? >> the federal government cannot

regulate the interstate commerce right now. right now you cannot cross state lines in order to buy insurance. >> well, you are right about that. certainly the health care industry and sector and insurance is participating and defines national commerce. it's 16% of our gdp. to be technical, that's the jurisdictional -- you have a democratic attorney general that doesn't agree with it, am i correct about that? >> well, he issued an opinion this last year on the health freedom act. he was very noncommittal on it, and said the federal law could trump the state law. there seems to be a question there. we are getting ready to pass a resolution through the senate and house asking him to sue the federal government -- >> senator, i hate to interrupt. the show is coming to an end and

i don't want to step on chris matthew's toes. thank you for participating and being with us. that does it for today's dylan ratigan show. "hardball" with chris matthews starting right now. the party of lincoln. let's play "hardball." good evening. i am chris matthews down in washington. leading off tonight, gone with the wind, i am talking about the proclamation that failed to even mention the cause of the civil war. well, now it has. he mentioned slavery, that is, and only after sending out the dog whistle to the jefferson fans out there. why would he want to defend the denial of the rights altogether, a war that had 600,000 americans

shooting at each other at pointblank range across open fields? plus, tea partiers called president obama a socialists, communists and terrorists. now some say the tea partiers are like the kkk and said they are taking over the republican party. and could we see a replay of last year's hostile town meetings? >> excuse me. excuse me. >> this was a scene from a recent town hall. the new hampshire democrat got the same treatment up there. when it rains it pours. that's in tonight's side show. let me finish with thoughts on a political organization long called the party of lincoln that might now be in need of some rebranding. let's start with governor

mcdonnel mcdonnell's proclamation. msnbc political analysts, pat buchanan, and of course a very close scotch irish fan of stonewall jackson. i don't think we need to give you your uniforms. karen, you are a proud heir to the confederacy, one could say. here is the governor's apologize. the failure to include any reference to the slavery was a mistake and for that i apologize to any fellow virginian who has been offended or disappointed. the proclamation issues was soley intended to promote the study of our history and encourage tourism and recognize

virginia's role. is this just for white tourists? >> it's 150th anniversary -- >> why would you encourage people to come down and -- >> well, there is a lot of miss information. virginia does not succeed over slavery, but virginia stayed in the union at the time of fort sumter. what took them out of the union is when abraham lincoln said we want volunteers, and your militia and your soldiers to attack the deep south and bring them back into the union. that's how virginia left the union. >> in other words, they refused to take sides with the union against the remembbels. >> they refused to have their sons kill their kin folk -- >> that's technical. >> technical? chris, wait a minute, there were

eight slave states in the union at the time of fort sumter, and seven in the confederacy. >> gentlemen, that's not the point. the point is bob mcdonnell missed a point. that's an american story. there is a broader american story. if we are going to celebrate the history, let's tell the whole story and history and let's celebrate the whole history, and let's not pick and choose the facts we like and don't like. >> this is the fact i think you like, pat. the sons of confederate veterans. the prezerization of liberty and freedom was the motivating factor to fight the second american revolution. the preservation of liberty and freedom was the motivating

factor to fight the second revolution. what does that mean? i don't understand -- how can you say you are for liberty and freedom? >> i have a great grandfather that died and another one captured in the battle of atlanta by sherman. and they wanted to be as independent of the american union as the founding fathers. they wanted -- >> so they could keep slaves? >> jefferson wanted to keep slaves, and washington wanted to keep slaves. >> 600,000 americans are dead because you wanted to keep slaves. your founding fathers had slaves. >> yeah, that was wrong. >> and they wanted to be free -- >> the south began to succeed over what issue? >> over the fact that lincoln was ae likted and the republican party was in power. lincoln did not get a single

electoral vote in the south. >> what was the issue? was it voting rights? >> gentlemen -- >> they wanted to kill their own kinfolk. that's virginia's issue. >> let's begin over the issue of slavery. tell me i am wrong. >> here is where you are wrong. lincoln's first inaugural to make slavery permanent, and wanted to run down fugitive slaves if they came back. >> lincoln ran -- >> no, he held to that. >> that's right. it scared the hell out of the confederacy, and they said you are sticking with us, and your side said let's fight. >> let's not rejude kate the

civil war. >> many people believe that he did this to solidify his face and perhaps win himself a place on the ticket next time around as the conservative counter point to -- >> anytime you are talking about state's rights, you know, that phrase comes from those who were defenders of slavery. there are certain code words. we all know what they mean, and words do matter. again, i think bob mcdonnell -- this is a pattern we have seen before, though, where they say something stupid, and they try to fix it, and then actually they end up inflaming progressives and conservatives. i think in this instance, mcdonnell missed a big point. he made the corrections and the phone calls, but i think there is more going on here in terms -- >> let's talk states' rights.

>> we have heard that over the last couple weeks, pat. >> i know. >> and there is more going on here politically. >> talk about it. >> that is a very specific tactic out of the rove play book designed to incite peoples' anger. >> let's talk states' rights and nullificati nullification. they came from the kentucky resolutions written by jefferson and madison who wanted to nullify adam's law. they said you don't have to obey the laws. that's where these ideas came from. >> but the united states of america -- >> don't deny the truth of this history. >> don't deny all of it is my point, pat. >> why are republicans in the south, like rick perry talking about succession, why are they talking about nullification? why is bill mccomb running down there for governor?

this is the lynn ingo of the ci war fight? why are they ripping off the scab of the civil war? >> because it's becoming a dislike, and a lot of people are coming to detest their government -- >> the north. >> no, not the north. the government of the united states. >> they like their state governors and they don't like the national governments, that's right. there is a real feeling of people that they don't like this government. >> who was right in the civil war? >> i think in a way both sides were right. lincoln had a right to save the union. i think they had a right to go free. >> you cannot defend the right to slavery. >> robert e. lee was right to defend his fellow -- >> maybe if guys like him would have stood up and stuck with the

union. if you listen to sam houston, you would not have had the war. >> i want to go back to the other point. there is something very disturbing happening in this country when you have leaders, republican leaders, using certain phrases that are code phrases, not even just about the civil war, but again designed to have a very specific impact in inflaming the base, and motivating the base, rather than -- >> pat doesn't need a code. pat is arguing -- he doesn't need deseat here. he thinks the federal union was maybe equally right to the south. >> i think they both had a moral possession. >> america is in a difficult time right now. you can't count on the church or corporations like toyota, who will put profits over people, and the church will protest priests over children, and -- >> what are you talking about?

it's terribly irresponsible. we have death threats going on -- >> in his defense, as a booster of his state, he was going to boost tourism by the history month. is it just white people that would -- can you answer the question. >> i will answer the question. i think many african-americans, hispanics and asians and white americans -- would you go as a white american, would you go and celebrate the confederacy? that's why it does a disservice, chris. >> i think some find it fascinating. >> chris, these re-enactments -- >> my sons have been in the re-enactments. i have nothing against it. >> karen, are you angry about pat's possession here? >> of course i am. >> i am not angry about hers. >> i think we have to move -- >> you don't think robert e. lee

was honorable? >> he was on the wrong side! >> up next, we have more of this coming here. without the robes and the hoods, we will hear more of the argument. we is coming here to explain his statement. you are watching "hardball" only on msnbc. in the aisle. choosing your own car? now that's a good call. go national. go like a pro.

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welcome back to "hardball."

the tea party crowd called president obama a socialists and communist and nazi. and now the tea party movement is being compared to the kkk movement in an interview. let's listen. >> the tea party people are without robes and hoods, they have really shown a very hardcore angry side of america that is against any type of diversity. and we saw opposition to african-americans, and hostility towards gaze, hostility to anybody who was not just a clone of george wallace's fan club. i think they have taken over the republican party. and i'm -- >> give me your in sight.

how much is -- >> i think there is a lot of it, chris. i walked among the mall among the protesters, and took my badge off and had shades on and walked around. it was almost 99% white. i saw a minimal number of african-americans, and asians and native americans. they were all so alike. and after the hatred that i saw exposed calling congressman john lewis, one of my heroes, and another friend the "n" word, and spitting on emanuel disgusted

me. when the leadership did not say anything about it, it compared president obama to hitler and to a nazi, and the party does look very bad when they don't stand up and say this was wrong and shameful. >> i was in some anti-war demonstrations back in the vietnam war era, and i remember the big march in the pentagon, and there were thousands out there, and there was reds, and liberals, and communist were in that group, and should they have demonstrated against them -- always as members of a rally, you have to pick a fight with the odd balls that are in the group? >> i am just giving you an argument here. you are saying everybody in the group is responsible for everybody in the group, and i

never have seen that standard apply before? >> one of the main things the group was against was against health care. dr. king was assassinated in my hometown, and we observed that day with activities this past weekend. dr. king talked about health care being a right and one of the great inhumane things was not having it. and it just doesn't seem like we have come that far in reflecting on dr. king, having been a proponent of health care, and seeing an opposition to health care affects so many people, white and black, but a disproportionate amount of people that are black, it was a flashback to an era.

>> let me ask you -- >> that seemed to be consistent. >> and there were guys on the right listening to fox, and they were denying that there was any evidence, we had the voice recording left for lewis, and when you were out moving around on the crowd there, did you personally witness that? >> i personally knlt say that i was. to be honest, i was listening to my ipod. >> let's take at e-mails you have been getting. they have been turned over to the fbi. if our tea parties had hoods, we would burn your expletive on a cross on the white house lawn, you total piece of -- it would be nice to read somebody who had cut your something throat. is this something that is new

for you? have you had to put up with this before? i have gotten some of this over the years, and i true not to get affected by it. have you gotten this kind of real hate mail before, sir? >> not very often. this has been the moest vit treeall treeallic. and some lady called me the other day and she was upset about my vote on health care and she was a tea party person and she told me that she was a 61-year-old lady with a disability, and i asked her if she got her social security disability. she is living off something that was provided through a democratic congress, and she doesn't understand. and the same words were used against social security and medicaid and civil rights and voting rights, that this was a takeover, and too much government and socialism and communism. it's as american as apple pie

now, and so would this health care bill be. >> you are a white fellow in a district largely black. isn't there people that make statements about that from the left, if you will? >> well, there are some, but, you know, my district is a wonderful district. it's a diverse district. it's african-american, and i get a lot of love in this district and represent the district the way they need representing. we need health care and education and social benefits, and we have been able to deliver on those. our district has really overcome a lot. we have come a long way from the assassination of dr. king and segregation. >> the governor the virginia, and he is talking about a proclamation glorifying the confederacy, and never mentioned

slavery. all of this lingo that you and i studied in school, it's all coming out again. somebody is ripping off the scab on this. why are the conservatives pushing the old fight again? >> i think that there is race involved in it, and it's because the parties are so separate, and people play to their base. the democratic party has mostly the african-american support and the republicans don't. they are just playing to their base. it's unfortunate. you need leadership. the bob doles, that type of republican is not around any more. you need moderates within the republican party but not in leadership. and it sounds like nullification dripping off their lips. it's not the kind of language you need to bring together america. they talk about bipartisan ship,

and then meeting at the state line, and these are not the words that you hear in congress. it's impossible to have bipartisanship when one party says no, no, no, and kill the bill. the whole idea of kill the bill was difficult. i was out on the balcony, and the verbiage was on the -- it was so strong you knew if they got -- they had ill feelings toward anybody that voted for the bill. tempers got so great. and it -- i had been to birmingham, montgomery with john lewis on the civil rights pilgrimages. we saw the bridge and we went there when the government tried to opress people that wanted to start civil rights.

and this did not start with george bush and dick cheney that had the biggest deficit budgets ever. they did not care. and this does not make sense except for the parties. >> i do like the fact that you represented martin luther king's words, their lips dripping with nullification. up next, it does get a little confusing, but we have to remind you of what party you are in. that's coming up. ♪ client comes in and they have a box. and inside that box is their financial life. people wake up and realize i better start doing something. we open up that box. we organize it. and we make decisions. we really are here to help you. they look back and think, "wow. i never thought i could do this."

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show. arlen specter getting caught tuesday in the winds of his own change. the pennsylvania senator was addressing a crowd of penn state college democrats, when he forgot whose team he is on. >> i have been endorsed by the college republicans. >> they were all democrats. and next, palin and a michelle bachmann show last night. >> how many of you would like to see a palin/bachmann ticket? are you thinking about a run

again? >> as i have said, i will not close any doors that perhaps could be open. >> the world is her oyster, and if she wants to run she has tremendous support from the american people. >> anything can happen in the tea party and the republican party once they merge for the 2012 election. i will not forget congresswoman congresswoman's bid that they talk about conservative. king objected to their presence writing in a press release the humane society of the united states is run by vegetarians with an agenda whose goal is -- >> for tonight number, proof that the rnc these days, when it

rains, it's pours. the next item is now all the more ju sea. the rnc also has curious charges for what it labels office supplies. remember that, office supplies. these charges include hundreds of dollars at a clothing boutique, and a fly-fishing store, and perhaps the most curious bill was at the winery in vermont, a winery that says it doesn't sell anything but wine. how much did the office supplies cost up there? $982. the hits keep coming at the rnc. talk about creative accounting. tonight's big number, wow. look out mr. steele. angry voters about health

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i am have your cnn stock market look. the dow jones is rising 29 points, and the nasdaq tacking on 5 1/2 points. and then the same store sales jumping in march. gap stores, target and bed, bath & beyond were a few of the days winners. and then 19% for pier 1 imports. airline stocks surging across

the board today after wednesday's announcement of merger talks between united states and us airways. and then jobs clouding the recovery picture. analysts had been expecting a decline. that's it for cnbc, first in business worldwide. now back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." members of congress are seeing a lot of anger back in their districts these days about health care. the extreme is death threats for some places, and then anger and civility in other places. democratic congressman is running for a senate, and he was rebuffed by a constituent and he tried to shake her hand, and he said i don't want to shake your hand, you voted for health care, so just go away.

and then let's listen and watch this. >> historic health care summit led by president obama to review the details of the health care -- excuse me. excuse me! excuse me. excuse me. i am going to ask everybody to continue to be respectful. >> be respectful to us when -- >> congresswoman, who gave you the right or authority to determine whether or not i have to purchase health care? >> what is behind this anger? can democrats do anything to change peoples' minds? two congress members join us now. it seems to be the issue grabbing people right now. not the cost or the complicated issues of medicare. but the argument you are beginning to hear, i don't want to buy health insurance and you

cannot make me. >> well, at my town hall, i did get that question, you know, the what gives you the right to force me to have health care question, and what i explained and a lot of people appreciated the explanation was that we did not require in this legislation americans to have health care. what we did was establish a different treatment via your tax return, just like the difference between married people and unmarried people or people who have children and don't and homeowners and renters. if you choose not to have health care, you can do that, but you need to understand you will be treated differently on your tax return at the end of the year, and you will have to -- you will be assessed differently than you would have if you carry health care. it was a simple explanation and a lot of people appreciated it. but unfortunately, the clip you just showed from my town hall, you know, all of those clips were taken by opponents of reform. they don't show the fact that the overwhelming majority of people that showed up to my town

hall were supporters of the town hall, supporters of me and president obama and were very enthusiastic, and i got to talk to them about the fact that we closed the medicare doughnut hole, and clear up the questions and highlight the fact that we literally changed the health care system with the president's signature from a sickness to prevention and wellness system, and we put patients and doctors in the driver's seat where they belong. >> thank you for joining us. this woman gave you the rebuff when you wanted to shake her hand. is that new for you to of that kind of anger? >> this is new hampshire. we have a lot of independent thinkers in new hampshire. i had a great time there, and there were a table of about a dozen ladies eating lunch, and two of them didn't like the health care bill and did not want to shake my hand and the other ten said sit down and

let's have lunch and we had a great time at the senior center. there were a couple that were not happy, and a awful lot of people thanking me and were especially interested to hear this year we are starting to close the doughnut hole for seniors. >> is this a squeaky wheel situation where the people that don't like it get the reaction from the media? we don't say there were no accidents, but we cover the accidents. that's what the news is. we will not say everything went great the other day when five people got murdered last night. we will cover the anger factor. are you saying it's not representative, however? are you saying that? >> it's certainly not representative of my experience this week. i have been out talking about jobs, and revitalizing the middle class and health care reforms and the jobs bill especially for small business. people have been thanking me, when i tell them kids 19 and

under will not be denied health insurance for preexisting conditions, and that seniors were starting to close the doughnut hole, and for small businesses this means tax credits now to help pay for health insurance for their employees, and folks are thanking me. i had two ladies that did not want to shake my hand, and we did a public town hall in nashville, and it was advertised on statewide television, and the newspapers, and i had a guy outside with a sign saying it was my money, and inside i had a crowd that gave me a standing ovation when i walked in and he wanted to know details and about jobs. >> i just want to know about this thing. a couple things mist afi me. you rely more and more on

pharmaceuticals. why are they complaining, and why are people already on medicare, which is a federal government, why are they against the government role per se? that's what surprises me. they benefit from the government role, per se. what are they talking about saying why can't government stay out of health care? >> the district that i represent in south florida, when we have a chance to explain to them and cut through the rude bullies trying to take over the meetings, and the noise that you just described that is getting over covered in proportion to what is really happening, when we have a chance to explain to seniors that they get a $250 check this year when they fall in the doughnut hole, and next year there will be a 50% cut on name brand drugs when they fall in the doughnut hole and the next ten years, it will be completely closed. we are adding nine years to solvency to medical care, and they have a annual wellness exam

that most seniors don't go because they cannot afford the deductibles and copays, and when we get to that seniors understand and support the bill. the bullies and the rude people from the tea party -- by the way, i got a standing ovation at the beginning and at the end, and most people in the room were for reform. and when one woman talked about how she had been brain injured on the job with a lead ball, and that's why she forgot her question and asked for another opportunity to ask it, and another woman spoke out and said god punished me and gave me breast cancer because i supported health care reform. these people are not interested in working together and having a civil discussion, and they are interested in winning, and that's not what this is about. we should all come together.

>> and that was the shakiest hand in television that last picture of your town hall. that picture was all over the place. up next, sarah palin and michelle bachmann are considered two of the brightest lights. these two women are super stars right now in the tea party movement. are they leaders of the republican party yet? that's the big question. or would they bring down the ticket if they get on it. this is "hardball" on msnbc. switch your car insurance to allstate, and you can earn a five percent bonus. five percent of your premium, sent to you twice a year... for as long as you don't have an accident. the safe driving bonus check. only from allstate. safety pays. that's allstate's stand. are you in good hands?

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welcome back to "hardball." was virginia governor bob mcdonnell making a strategic political move when he decided to make april confederacy month. >> yeah, we knew what you meant. >> i read the prompter. >> somebody is tired here. and todd is the republican, and -- we cover politics more at a sophisticated level here, and there are no mistakes in politics. >> yeah, we make them all the time. >> when a man sits down and writes a proclamation in the

state of venlg, and a liberal would not do it, and a conservative wants to liven up his base. why did he do it? why did he not mention slavery? >> it was a mistake. obviously, he should have mentioned it. >> what do you mean a mistake? he forgot to mention? >> it should have been included. >> what do you mean he forgot to mention it? mistakes meaning he forgot slavery existed? is that the mistake? >> we can do one of two things here -- >> he didn't want to offend anybody about slaves. >> when politicians make a mistake, and they said i made a mistake, and then -- >> what does a mistake mean? >> he should not have done it. he issued an apology, and called the head of the black caucus in richmond in the legislature and issued an apology to him. for a politician to make a mistake and say i made a mistake

and i will own it, there ought to be more of that and not less. >> here is the question, when bob mcdonnell says he is sorry, is he sorry he will not get caught. >> how could he not get caught? it's a public proclamation. >> i think it's win-win. i don't think it was a mistake. if nobody blew a whistle on it, he would have been happy with the right wing. now that he had to apologize, they say, yeah, he apologized, they know where his heart is. >> i bet if you're sitting with governor mcdonnell, you would not say it's a win-win. he owned up to that mistake, too many people don't do. >> explain the thinking, why would a person -- forget the lingo and particulars, why would a guy get up one day and talk to his staff and say, we ought to do something to honor confederate month around here. why would somebody do it? >> this is not a democrat

republican thing, it is a southern thing. i'm from california and i'm hardly qualified to talk about this. all of us have traveled all through the south and whether you're a republican or democrat, is there no question that white southerners have a special feeling about their history that people from the north don't understand or relate to. it's not a republican or democratic thing. i'm from california and i will not pro-tend and not condemn it. >> why did the two previous democratic governors not do it? >> i don't think it is. >> why did they oppose the civil rights act? why is there still pre-clearance for 11 states in the south. there is a question about this, no question. the last two democratic governors of virginia recognized how inflammatory and insulting this is for so many people in virginia and didn't do it. >> we've done the south, now the west. a lot of regionalism. this western thing going on with

palin and bachmann about fishing and hunting, make regional appeals. is your party becoming the south and west and is this going to replace the establishment, like boehner and others, are they going to stand there and be replaced by them? >> based on polling and election results, whether scott brown and governor christie in new jersey, there is an appeal to the republican party, a right ward movement across the party, not just in the south and northwest, northwest, and also in the south. we'll see what happens on election day. >> these people are the new stars of your party, these two women? >> there's no question that bachmann and governor palin have quite a bit of grassroots support. does that make them the leaders of the party? no, i don't think it does. one of the reasons why the party is having some of the troubles it's having is because we don't

have a leader right now. this happens to every party when you don't control the white house. >> i think i made her on this show i said we have to investigate the members of congress for anti-americanism and she went up the flag with that one. >> it's things like that that make people a star in the republican party. bob mcdonnell will turn this and make it something that the national media democrats blew it up. that's where i was going. >> he's sorry today and say that the national media took it out of context and blew it up, the democrats blew it in, you know where my heart is. >> and she made that charge that they ought to be investigated for anti-americanism. >> and the congressman from florida, who stood on the floor and said let the health care plan die and then issued a direct mail mease to raise money off it. this happens all over the place. >> now, you have bachmann and palin overdrive all over the country like a concert tour,

basically the republican party is returning to its base on west and south. >> what do they call it? windshield wiper wave. you have to learn how to do it. president lincoln, would he still be a republican with all the talk about state's rights and honoring the confederacy? ♪orn from the map of michigan ♪ ♪ i am carrying this scra of paper ♪ when it's people who do the right thi, they call it being responble. when it's an insurance company, they call it liberty mutual. responsibility. what'sour policy? liberty mutual.

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